From a Pub to Award Winning Independent Beer

Martin (00:00) Hello and welcome to the Beer Rep Chats with. And today I am joined by co-founder of Baker's Dozen, Dean. Dean, thank you very much for joining the show. Dean Baker (00:10) Yeah, no worries. No worries. It's a pleasure. Martin (00:13) It's great to have you on. big fan of your beers. as I was just talking about before we started recording, I was up in Stamford enjoying a nice pint of Undertow at the Tobie Norris. Beautiful beer. but for anyone who doesn't know Baker's dozen, how would you describe the brewery and and what you're about? Dean Baker (00:31) so we're quite a small brewery, so we're just a five-barrel, ten hectolitre brewery. It's myself and my wife Jill who run it. You might be able to see Jill in the background doing some work whilst I'm sitting here chatting. Martin (00:45) Yeah. Dean Baker (00:48) so yeah, it's just the two of us. we don't have any employees, so we cover everything we are with with brewing. cleaning, delivering, sales, cleaning, marketing, social media cleaning. yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, Martin (01:07) Jack of all trades. Dean Baker (01:10) we do the whole lot. Martin (01:11) Yeah. So so when did you when did you start the brewery and and what was the reason for it? Dean Baker (01:16) so we founded the brewery in 2015 so our background is in hospitality, so we had a pub. we ran a pub for sixteen years. so for the last five years of that we had the brewery as well. So it was basically just that kind of the interest in our industry and and very much we were a wet lead pub and It was just that yeah, the interest in the products that we're selling and the just diving into that rabbit hole and then falling into some some dreadful home brewed beers that were truly awful. Martin (02:00) Yeah. Dean Baker (02:01) But decided that we could probably give it a go and it'll be fine. It'll be all right. so yeah, yeah, that Martin (02:06) Yeah. Yeah. Dean Baker (02:08) that's pretty much it. Martin (02:10) How long was your home brewing for? Dean Baker (02:13) probably not that long, maybe a couple of years. so I I did a brewing course up at brew lab up in Sunderland and yeah it was again that would have been around about 2011 ten, something like that. Martin (02:33) Okay. Dean Baker (02:34) and at the time everybody wanted to be brewdog. literally everybody there was talking Martin (02:41) Yeah. Dean Baker (02:46) Yeah, yeah, very Martin (02:44) quite the opposite now. Dean Baker (02:46) much so. and yeah, and it was those sort of you know modern styles of beers that we were more interested in at the time. and yeah it kind of it went from there. I did some home brewing that were that were just terrible but figured that we probably had enough knowledge to to make something work. And cross happiness. Martin (03:13) Yeah. What what was it like scaling up from like a homebrew kit to, you know, a proper full fledged, you know, brewing equipment? Dean Baker (03:20) It was I wouldn't really look at it as scaling up as such. I think it was just starting a venture from scratch. So whilst I had done some home brewing, it yeah I don't think there was there was nothing to be proud of there. But there was just some some good grounding in knowledge and how things work. stuff and so it it was it was more just a case of being confident that if we had some half decent equipment and sort of temperature controls in place everything would just be fine. It all will just it'll work. and Martin (04:01) Yeah. Dean Baker (04:03) yeah yeah I think we're still getting away with it. Martin (04:06) Yeah, well your beers are tasting great, mate, so I can't knock em that's for sure. But yeah, I've been brewing like home brewing for like four years and and I think I'm only proud of like three beers I think that I've made in in my lifetime that I'm actually proud of. so yeah, I mean take my hat off too to you know taking a big jump leap of faith kind of thing and actually producing some actually quality beers. so What did you want to do differently when you started? Or has that kind of changed over the years or have you still got that same mentality of what you wanted to do and achieve? Dean Baker (04:41) I don't think we were looking to do anything different. we were just wanting to brew good quality beer of the styles that we were interested in and that our pub customers at the time were wanting to buy and drink. and it was as simple as that. So, you know, there's never been any looking to reinvent the wheel. I don't think, you know, it It's been done, hasn't it? You know, we it it's Martin (05:08) Yeah. Dean Baker (05:10) it's just yeah, just making sort of good quality products that people are gonna buy, enjoy and wanna come back and buy another. And that's that's the sort of the the key to it really, trying to sort of brew something that people want to have another one of. Martin (05:27) Do you s do you still have the pub as well that you you started in? Dean Baker (05:30) No, we sold the pub in 2021 basically we got to the stage where I was here all the time. I was on my own and Jill had taken over my roles in the pub. and so she was kind of busy there. And we were sort of ships passing in the night and so we'd gone from working with each other all day, every day, with you know, no time Martin (05:56) To not see each other at all. Dean Baker (05:58) And so yeah, and like we work together really well, and we still like each other, which always sort of fascinates me really. But we Martin (06:06) Yeah, definitely. There's I mean, it's there's not many couples that actually work together and actually still get along and still survive at the end. Dean Baker (06:12) Yeah, yeah, no like we we we genuinely enjoy spending time with each other. and and I do think we we genuinely work well together. We kinda we're really good at bouncing ideas off each other and then deciding that I was right. I think Jill will probably watch this, so I need to be careful. But Martin (06:35) It's alright, I can edit some bits out, whatever you want to say. Dean Baker (06:39) yeah, so we've always been good at working with each other and it just sort of yeah, it was odd to to be very much have separate working lives and it wasn't quite working out and so we just said, Well look, something's gotta change. we could you know, probably let's just bin one of them off and keep the other. So we had a successful pub that was making money and we had a new sort of venture brewery that was, you know, sort of expensive and there's not really a lot of money to be made from it, but there's probably more Martin (07:20) Yeah. Dean Baker (07:20) time off there, so let's do that, that'll be fine. so Martin (07:23) I bet it was like really exciting to start the new venture, but also quite worrying because you already had a successful business in the pub. And then going into the brewing side, it must have been a bit scary, I'd imagine. I mean, I'd definitely be I'd be, you know, a bit worried and but also, you know, wanting to keep the faith as well that it it can work. Dean Baker (07:42) Yeah, I think we were always sort of quite confident really that we would just you know, it would just be okay. I think we you know, we always sort of I think we tend to be quite positive about things if we're gonna do something. We've put a lot of thoughts into it, we've planned and so we were just confident that we could just make it work. Martin (08:01) Yeah. Dean Baker (08:02) and yeah, and have some time off at the same time, which is something we didn't really do in the pub. We weren't very good at that. So it was Martin (08:10) Yeah. Dean Baker (08:11) yeah, it it's nice to kind of have evenings off and stuff and occasional weekends. so we very much enjoy that. Martin (08:17) evenings off. I don't know what one of them is. so obviously you said like your decision on your core range beers, your styles of beer that you brew is dependent on kind of what your customers in the pub were wanting. so yeah, what sort of styles were they mostly interested in? Dean Baker (08:39) I mean basically we built our business selling Oakham's beers and Brewster's both sort you know, two local brilliant breweries. and that's what we sold the most of. you know, we yeah, we sold a lot of their beers permanently on the bar and just yeah, they were they would fly out. So they were those kind of yeah hop forward styles were very much what we were into. sort of like Brewsters obviously they brew like a broad range of styles and they're very, very good at it. and so yeah they were the people that we were kind of looking up to when we started and yeah yeah certainly the sort of the routes we wanted to take were along those lines. Martin (09:38) Awesome. What kind of beer do you reckon sums up Baker's dozen for you? Dean Baker (09:42) which beer okay, so I don't know if I know the answers to that. the obvious ones would be like the Electric Landlady, which is a kind of flagship beer. it's a single hop mosaic pale ale. it's not out there crazy. you know, it's not the hoppiest beer in the world, it's not trying to be. but yeah, it's it's just it's got elements of of o of balance, but you know, sort of nice big, kind of fresh punchy aromas and stuff. I think that's probably yeah, that I think that's probably Martin (10:23) Yeah. So that's that's your yeah, it's always the flagship beer that's the most memorable, I think, for for most brewers. when they're you know, it's the one that they've kind of put their heart and soul into it and and developed the recipe over the years to make it what it is today. moving on, we've got a a listener question via Instagram from Lizzie Hardin, and she's asking, What is your favourite hop? Dean Baker (10:51) yeah. so again I think my my sort my go-to answer for this is mosaic, just because we use it in Electric Landlady with stuff, flagship beer. We also use it in the acoustic landlady, which is the sort of baby version of it. and it makes appearances kind of here, there and everywhere in various beers that we do. So it's probably that, but I don't know if I really have a favourite when it comes down to it. it's all dependent on on the beer and the and the style and stuff and just what's gonna work best for what you're looking for on that particular day. So I don't know if I necessarily have a favourite or a favourite combo even but but yeah I'd I'd say Martin (11:35) Yeah. I think mosaic is a hop so versatile, isn't it? It's like Citra. It's a very versatile hop. You can use it in all stages of the brew. Dean Baker (11:43) Yeah, yeah, yeah, I would say so. Martin (11:45) And it just yeah, just makes it easy to use. loads of great flavours that you can that come through as well. You know, dry hopping and late additions. has your has your taste in beer changed since you started brewing? Dean Baker (12:01) I would say it probably has, actually, yeah. so I've always been a lover of all drinks alcoholic, Martin (12:12) Yeah. Dean Baker (12:14) other than like Pernod can't stand it. also had a Jägerbomb probably last year, I think it was, for the first time ever. Won't be doing that again. but Martin (12:23) I've got memories of Jägerbomb Dean Baker (12:28) but so yeah, I'd I'd say it probably has. I think when you know, sort of go back twenty years, it was all it was it was the race for the highest IBU, wasn't it? You know, everyone's like trying to brew the the most bitter beer and stuff and that kind of Martin (12:48) Yeah. Dean Baker (12:49) fade away. And so and I used to love sort of really really dry, really bitter beers. but yeah, over recent years I've kind of I've really lost that that love for that intense bitterness. but Jill loves like a really dry, really bitter beer. That's kind of what really floats her boat. She loves I like Oakham Citra, is her favourite beer ever. If she's ever Martin (13:18) Yeah. Dean Baker (13:19) sniffed on a bar, she's you know go to instantly. Martin (13:22) Yeah, I do like that as well. Dean Baker (13:26) but for me I I find it just far too bitter these days. so yeah I guess yeah sort of aired back a bit on on that side of things. but I've always liked sort of quite a range of beers so you know I'll occasionally order a mainstream lager if I'm in the mood or you know Guinness or something. but I've sort of growing up, I think one of my favourite drinks was McEwen's Export. Used to love it when I was about seventeen, eighteen, nineteen sort of things. Martin (14:03) Okay. talking of you know, a bit of recognition of of you know the the brilliant beers that you're producing, you've had a fantastic run of collecting some awards. your recent one was at the SIBA East Awards. you picked up quite a few awards there. I remember BeerX as well last year, this year in March, you picked up a few awards there as well. yeah, can you talk us a bit about you know what that means to you and Jill? Dean Baker (14:31) yeah, it's it is great. It's yes but you know, we put these beers into the SIBA competitions. just I think just because it's just two of us on our own and we're fairly remote. We don't go out that far, our delivery area's not massive. we don't we perhaps don't drink a huge amount of other people's beers 'cause we don't go out that much. And Martin (15:03) Yeah. Dean Baker (15:05) so it's good to know that we're still producing like when these competitions come around and that we're producing beer that's of good enough quality to be up there with the other brewers like around us in the regions and stuff. and so it's yeah it's a good measure to know that you're still doing something right. it's Martin (15:29) Yeah. Dean Baker (15:29) You know, I think we have weeks and days and stuff where where we question if everything's okay, if what we're doing is all right. you know, you have a quiet week and you or a couple of weeks and you just think, God, is is the beer okay? Are we doing something wrong? and then, Martin (15:45) Ha ha ha. Dean Baker (15:46) you know, a couple of weeks later everything's fine. But Martin (15:49) Yeah. Dean Baker (15:50) yeah, it's a good it's a good yardstick, I guess, to know that that you're producing stuff that Although we like it, we think it's good, of good quality that it's been received to be as good as we think it hopefully is. so yeah, it it is good and it's yeah, it's really nice. Martin (16:13) Yeah. So you like undertow, picked up gold and it was also got bronze in the overall champion. Yeah. what Dean Baker (16:19) Yeah. Martin (16:19) was it about that beer that made it, you know, so special? Everyone seemed to be I mean, I've tried it and I think it's beautiful beer. one of the best cask beers I've had. so yeah, what makes it a bit extra special? Dean Baker (16:32) I don't really know. so it's just it's well we started off calling it a Session New England IPA which is not really 'cause it's got an Undertow of bitterness hence the name Undertow and also Tool Martin (16:47) Yeah. Dean Baker (16:48) and Tool, it was a great album. But so yeah it's more like Mountain IPA style really, but we've never really called it that 'cause a a lot of people just don't know what that style is, certainly in the Martin (17:06) Yeah. Dean Baker (17:06) pubs and stuff that we're selling to around here. So we try and keep it as simple as we can in terms of not trying to, you know, overcomplicate you know, styles and Martin (17:14) Yeah, exactly. A of people get put off. A lot of people get put off when they buy the a style of beer that they just have no idea what it is, even though they might like it. They won't even just try it. Yeah. Dean Baker (17:21) Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So we call it a session New England 'cause I think it's just it's a lot easier to get an idea of what sort of style of beer it is. but yeah, I don't I don't know. it's a nice combo. It's Citra and Nelson Sauvin so it's so with Nelson on the hot side and Citra cold side. and Yeah, I don't know. It just it comes together really nicely. It's it's a great beer. It's it's kind of I guess it's our go to. It's what we've got a few cans of in the fridge at home to dip into if you fancy beer at home. You know, it's just that Martin (17:58) Yeah. Dean Baker (17:59) kind of go to. it's probably well, it's our biggest selling keg beer. I think it's probably our biggest selling can beer as well. so it's yeah, it does go really well. It's yeah, it's it's won the it's actually it's won the regional SIBA competition every year since we started brewing it. so our first SIBA keg competition, well any competition was in 2021 and yeah it's won every year. So and it's won something at national level every year as well. So it's yeah, it's obviously we've hit on something something good that it's no, no, we're not yeah. Martin (18:45) Yeah, definitely, yeah. Don't don't change the recipe. I think I think you've nailed it there. Definitely nailed it. Also, 12 second panda, got a gold as well. what was the thinking behind that beer? Dean Baker (18:59) yes. So again it's another sort of band based. it's also a song by a band called Cleft. so they were Manchester based. Sadly the the guitarist passed away from an illness, so they are no longer. But we went to see them and had a chat with them before and or after the gig, can't quite remember, and said, look, we've got this idea for it. beer called 12 second panda and they were like yeah brilliant go for it just send us some a couple of cans or something once you brewed it. So we brewed it and offered to send them some bottles it was at the time and they just said well neither of us drink actually so it's fine. It's it's okay. It's so yeah it was just I think the Beer was an idea when it was just listen to the album, What Would I Like to Be Drinking Now? sort of thing. And so yeah, big IPA loads of citra. Martin (20:06) Yeah. Yeah, that's that's a good in a bit of inspiration how just you know something just pops into your head after, you listening to some music and stuff like that. And it just goes to show how, you know, music is quite and beer are quite related quite well. There's a lot of breweries that are related, you know, all their beers are produced based on, you know, bands' names or music in some sort of form. And it it goes really well, just like, you know, food as well, food styles, I think they go quite well with with beer styles. Dean Baker (20:34) Yeah, it does Martin (20:35) yeah, yeah. So do you think like, you know, you've won quite a lot of awards for the beers that you've brewed. Does it kind of change the way you approach brewing or is it just back to making, you know, the next beer and hopefully that does really well as well? Dean Baker (20:53) Yeah, I don't think it changes anything. we just sort of we just get on with it really, I think. so yeah, you know, the following day it's just it's back to the grindstone. We might get a few extra orders for for certain beers that pick something up in a competition. But but yeah, we just sort of crack on with it really. we made a decision a few years ago, perhaps three or four years ago, to Martin (21:34) Yeah. Dean Baker (21:41) core range and really kind of sort of drill down on those recipes and brew the best beers that we can within that core and then yeah sort of take what we're learning about those beers to to brew seasonals and specials and stuff and so I think since we chose that route yeah we've certainly done well on the awards and stuff since then. So it's and I think the sort of general standard of the beers that we're producing is better than it was sort of four or five years ago. Martin (22:20) Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I think, yeah, just having a really good core range is the best thing a small independent brewery can do because a lot of places that do order from indpendents or can order from indpendents, they wanna be able to get that beer in again because they know their customers are gonna enjoy it. And if they can continue to buy that from you, it's only gonna be beneficial for the pub and and the customers to be able to get that beer in again. rather than you know, one off specials. Customers love it. when are you gonna get that in again? Sorry, can't get that in again. And yeah, a lot of I think a core range is you know, you've got to focus on your core range, get it really, really good. Don't scrimp and save on the ingredients and make it as good as you can, you know. Is that kind of what you're kind of going on? Dean Baker (23:14) Yeah, absolutely. yeah, you know, it's well I think like as you said a minute ago, sort of the beer's a bit it's like food, isn't it? It's like any kind of recipe, any restaurant or stuff you buy in sort of great quality ingredients and you just wanna treat them with respect and do the best you can with them, to produce a you know, it's a big pot of stew in it, I guess. And but Martin (23:39) Yeah. Just put it all in. Put it all in a pot and hope for the best. Dean Baker (23:44) Yeah, yeah. That's it. Martin (23:47) So what do you think's been like the biggest challenge of of running, you know, the brewery and and that people outside the industry probably don't really see. Dean Baker (23:55) I mean where where'd you start? yeah. Martin (23:58) There's there's a lot, isn't there? I mean We can split the episode into two, it's all right. Dean Baker (24:08) Yeah, I mean I think we've still got a bit of debt hanging around from COVID. not much, we're almost through that one now. I think it's maybe next year we clear that. and the whole kind of energy crisis whenever that was, still is. I'm I don't even know anymore. so prices are rocketing everywhere all the time. Martin (24:36) Yeah. Dean Baker (24:36) you know it's it's everybody knows that that pubs are having a tough time of it. and obviously that knocks on to us when pubs are quiet, we're quiet. Martin (24:50) Yeah. Dean Baker (24:51) so you know everybody get out there. Okay, but Martin (24:54) Yeah, exactly. Get out there and get down to your independent pub and drink some independent beer. Dean Baker (24:58) Yeah. And then yeah, it's access to market, always a huge one. the tied pub model in this country is insane. you know we ran a tied pub, Martin (25:11) It is Dean Baker (25:14) we know all about it. my parents ran tied pubs, so I grew up in that sort of in that world. there's I don't wanna say not sound like perhaps other political figures in the world who say nobody knows more about tied pubs than I do. But yeah yeah Martin (25:33) Yeah. Dean Baker (25:37) we've got good like knowledge of the trade. and it is tricky, it's difficult. I don't know if I would if we would start this business now, I don't know if we would. we probably would actually just Martin (25:54) Mm-hmm. Dean Baker (25:55) but but yeah It's hard. there's not a huge amount of profit in it. but but it is, you know, it's good, it's rewarding, it's when you're not crying. Martin (26:11) What you think would be like a like a fair reasoning? Because obviously obviously the tied model isn't going anywhere, let's be honest. you know, it's never gonna disappear. So what do you think would be like a fair thing for you know the government to kind of do to allow more access to independent breweries to get into these tied pubs. I mean there's got to be some sort of rule that they need to put in place to allow tenants to to purchase from their local independent breweries. I mean what would you rather like see it like 20%, 30% mix? Dean Baker (26:46) yeah. I don't know, it's so tricky because I think whichever way any new legislation that came in, whichever way they put it, I think there'd always be a way around it. And so Martin (26:59) Yeah. Dean Baker (27:00) I think, you know, if they're saying, Well, we'll give you a a free of tie handpull for every side put I think not for everybody, but for a lot of people, they would just go for the biggest profit option. which would Martin (27:17) Yeah. Dean Baker (27:17) you know, put Doom Bar on there and they'll sell it you for fifty quid a cask You know what I mean? And so we wouldn't stand Martin (27:24) Exactly, yeah. Dean Baker (27:25) a chance if we're if our cask beer was a hundred quid and the option from the big brewer is half of that price, we're still not getting anywhere. So I don't know. I think those big brewers have deep pockets, don't they? And that they'll always make sure that they're on the bar. so I don't know what the answer is. Martin (27:47) They certainly do and it and every single conversation that's had around, you know, the the more access to market and or or any sort of improvement for for pubs, it's always involving the the the big know, the big breweries or the the big companies like Stonegate, etc. They they're always the ones that are involved in a conversation, which means that, you know, independent breweries don't have much say. They're kind of like in the background, trying to shout across, you know, a big sea of money corporate businesses. I Dean Baker (28:24) Yeah, Martin (28:25) mean see SIBA's doing a great thing. and CAMRA now as well are really jumping on board with you know trying to improve access to market and hopefully there will be an access review to market by the CMA and you know we can only hope and wish and pray that it does something. But yeah that's a long way away, I think. Dean Baker (28:45) Yeah. Martin (28:47) Yeah, which is it's sad. But you know, everyone's doing what they can and you're doing well. And it's good to see that you're, you know, next year you're paying off your COVID debt I think that really hit a lot of independent breweries and pubs, you know, trying to pay that back and still paying it back. but you know, what have you learned about working with pubs and customers over the years? Dean Baker (29:10) D don't do it. Martin (29:12) Ha ha ha ha. Dean Baker (29:17) I don't really know. I think it's what have I learned? I'm not sure. I don't know if I know the answer to that. everything? nothing. Martin (29:28) Yeah. Well you've le you've learned what styles sell what styles of beer sell. That's one thing you've learned. you know, what keeps customers coming back for for more. Dean Baker (29:39) Yeah, I guess as certainly in our local area, I think each area sort of tends to have its own tastes and stuff. you know, sort of where well kind of Stamford side to where we are. I think it's the hop forward beers have always been more popular, whereas if you go more sort of Oakham way Rutland side of where we are, it's a bit more brown beer country. Martin (30:09) Yeah. Dean Baker (30:09) So we're kind of sat right in the middle here where we are. so yeah, like locally, taste and stuff you know what people around you want to want to buy and drink. Martin (30:26) Yeah, yeah, sure. we're gonna head into another listener question from back on via Instagram again. from I hope I'm pronouncing this right, Anarchobaldy Anarchobaldy I hope I got that right. I've no idea. If I have Dean Baker (30:37) Anarchobaldy yeah. Martin (30:41) if I've mispronounced it, I do apologise. but they're asking, would you ever do a cider collab? Dean Baker (30:48) yeah. Yeah. Why not? Yeah, always always up for anything, really. anything interesting, we'd never say never say never. Martin (30:59) Never say never. Dean Baker (31:00) when we were in the pub actually quite a few years ago, probably I don't know, twenty years ago, we bought a cider press and a scratter and friends that got some apple trees, didn't do anything with them, so we got their apples and spent ages scratting them and for very little juice. I don't know if it was just that press that was rubbish or or what or just the apples weren't very good. But we spent a really long time put a lot of work into getting hardly any juice that ended up tasting awful. So that that would be Martin (31:34) dear. Dean Baker (31:37) outside a project. It was over before it started. But but yeah, if somebody's already done the hard work bit, I would be more than happy to do with it. Yeah. Yeah. Martin (31:47) Yeah. Do the pressing and then we're come do the rest. Is there any breweries that you'd like to do a like a cider collab with? Dean Baker (31:57) that's a that's that's not really though. Martin (32:01) There's a good one down in Bermondsey Against the Grain. They're quite new. They're really good, good brewery to do a a cider collab with. Have a look at them, check them out. They're called Against the Grain. Dean Baker (32:12) yes, so yeah, yeah. Martin (32:14) Yeah, they're pretty good. so yeah, moving on to, you know, the final question before we hit up some quick fire questions. But you know, what would you like to see happen for Baker's dozen over the next few years? What's your dreams? Dean Baker (32:30) retirement? Martin (32:34) This early? We've got to wait till we're seventy Dean Baker (32:35) yeah, exactly. Sorry so. Martin (32:39) before we can get our pension. That's what it's gonna get into. Dean Baker (32:41) Yeah, no, I think I think I'm still sixty eight or sixty seven or something like that. I think I'm I'm under that. Martin (32:49) Yeah. Dean Baker (32:49) Yeah. Martin (32:50) Well it's it it's going up year after year, so who knows? By the time you get to sixty eight it might be seventy two. Dean Baker (32:53) Yeah, yeah. It could well be, yeah. Martin (32:59) But yeah, what what would you like where'd you like to see Baker's dozen go in the next you know few years? Dean Baker (33:04) I don't really know. We we we talk very regularly about what are we doing, what are we gonna do, what the hell's going on? and we I'm not sure. I dunno I don't know, like genuinely don't know. We're a small business, it's just the two of us. So do we want to grow it a bit? Do we want to employ people? Do we want to move to a bigger venue? Do we want to do like an external venue somewhere? there's yeah there are options and I think it's how ambitious do we want to be? Are we comfortable to just to stay as we are? Is it quite a nice sort of lifestyle business? is it? yeah, so I don't know. We're we're kind of we're having that conversation at the minute. We're we're talking about it more and more. So I would say something, if we are gonna do something, it's probably gonna be in the next year or two. but Martin (34:17) Yeah. Maybe like a tap room or something? Dean Baker (34:20) sorry. Martin (34:21) Like your own tap room, maybe? Dean Baker (34:24) Yeah, possibly. Yeah, yeah. Currently we just we do a pop up here once a month. so we do it on temporary events notices, so we can only do 21 days a year. So yeah, we do once a month, every weekend. Which works really well, it's really well supported. so yeah, it's do we want to do more of that? When we left the pub, it was very much I'd never want to do hospitality again ever. Martin (34:52) Yeah. Yeah. I don't blame you. Dean Baker (34:54) And but but now it's sort of I've really enjoyed the tap room weekends, it's great. we get to dip our toe back in and Martin (35:03) Yeah. I think tap rooms are a different vibe, aren't they, to compared to a pub. It's so much more chilled and relaxed and the customers are completely different to what you would find in your local pub. Dean Baker (35:13) Yeah, to be honest, I think we like most of our customers are old pub customers. So it's just like being back in the Jolly Brewer you know, ten years ago. It was quite nice really. Martin (35:23) Yeah. Yeah. Dean Baker (35:26) yeah, it's well supported from as you know, old pub customers and people from Ketton and people from Oakham and people travel from all over so it's really nice. and you've got to make the effort to come here as well. So It's very much appreciated. 'cause we are tucked away a bit. We're a bit out of the way. so yeah, yeah, it it's good. And so yeah, I don't know if I would enjoy doing it full time again. but yeah. Yeah, definitely. Martin (36:00) You'd have to employ someone to manage it. So that you don't yeah. I mean yeah. I don't blame you. Hospitality is very, you know, It's hard work and it takes up a lot of time, eats into your your lifestyle. but you know, it's what we do. we love the interaction and we love the the industry, so that's how it is. but we're gonna move on to some quick fire questions to end the show. so favourite baker's dozen beer to drink. Dean Baker (36:34) favourite beer to drink. Martin (36:35) Yeah, you're Baker's Dozen one. Dean Baker (36:38) What am I just having one or two or am I in it for the night? Martin (36:45) Yeah, I mean, yeah, I reckon yeah, let's do both. Let's do in for the night and and just having one or two. Dean Baker (36:52) Okay, so for a steady session, probably it'd have to be Undertow I think. yeah, definitely. And if it was sort of short and sweet, you know, push with time, landlady X, all the way, double IPA, no messing, yeah, yeah. Get in, get the job. Martin (37:10) Yeah. Get in there done, job done quick, go to bed. Awesome. favourite beer that you haven't brewed? Dean Baker (37:22) Favourite beer I haven't brewed? Do you mean one that I wanted to brew but haven't, or brewed by somebody else? Martin (37:28) Brewed by somebody else. Dean Baker (37:29) Brewed by somebody else. Martin (37:31) It's a challenging one 'cause you said you don't get out to drink other people's beers much, so this is gonna be an interesting one. Dean Baker (37:34) Yeah, no, I don't. but I think so if there's one beer that I would like to drink again, that that I could remember what it is anyway. I think there's been several beers so I can remember where I was and when, but I've no idea what I was drinking, can't remember. Martin (37:53) Yeah. Dean Baker (37:54) but the one thing that was my go to in younger days, Carling Premier, Nitro Lager. Martin (38:02) Really? Dean Baker (38:03) And yeah, I used to absolutely love it. And so like we've toyed with doing a nitro lager 'cause for some reason nobody's brewing one that I'm aware of. I don't know if you're you think we'll do Martin (38:15) No, I've never heard of a Nitro lager. I mean Nitro Porters, Nitro Stouts obviously, Dean Baker (38:18) Honestly, it was Martin (38:20) but Dean Baker (38:20) drink of the gods I think they released it at the start of when the Premier League first came in, first season of the Premier League. So it was the beer to go with the Premier League. And Martin (38:31) Yeah. Dean Baker (38:32) yeah, absolutely. They used to sell it in the Lord Burley in Stamford. So we used to go there you know, every weekend, normally in the week as well, and just drink Carling Premier. It was just drink of the gods. And Martin (38:44) Was it just like a undercarbonated lager then? Dean Baker (38:47) Yeah, just nitro lager. So it's just Martin (38:50) Yeah. Dean Baker (38:51) yeah, thing of beauty. so we've talked about brewing a Nitro lager a few times, we've actually just kegged a lager. And I thought when it was kegging it, why didn't we nitro? Why don't we do nitro lager? But but yeah. Martin (39:05) Yeah, do on a split batch. Maybe do a split batch, give it a test. Dean Baker (39:09) Yeah, yeah, yeah. and so yeah, so both those things, both one that that we haven't brewed yet and was my favourite brew by somebody else, probably Carling Premier, as terrible as that is to say, it was up. And we Martin (39:25) After after the massive conversation about indpendents and independent breweries and stuff. Dean Baker (39:28) Yeah. We actually I had I had a nitro IPA in bar in New York year about years ago, a long time ago. And then I always wanted to do a nitro IPA as well and I managed to I floated the idea by Leigh on Sea Brewery a couple of years ago. So we went down there and brewed a nitro IPA, which was really good. it was excellent and they were saying it was one of their best selling beers ever was this nitro IPA. Egg and Martin (39:58) brilliant Dean Baker (39:59) I think it's I love nitro beers and and I don't understand why people I don't and myself why aren't I doing it? But why aren't people brewing more like nitro IPAs? Why is everyone doing nitro stouts and not you Martin (40:12) Yeah. Dean Baker (40:13) know nitro bitters, nitro IPAs, nitro lagers? It's you know, let's just brew loads of nitro beer. Martin (40:21) I'd like to see more nitro red ales More nitro red ales I think they're amazing. I think they're beautiful. a nice balance. another quick one. Have you got any future collabs coming up with other breweries? Dean Baker (40:36) We? good question. I I think there's stuff in the pipeline. I think we we spoke to a couple of breweries the other week, last week, maybe week before, up at Peterborough beer festival. I think we spoke to a couple of people then about doing a couple of collaborations. and we are We're doing one with local cricket club at Empingham, Empingham Cricket Club. So they've they've just won the East Midlands CAMRA club of the year. So they're down to like the last fourteen in the country. so that's Martin (41:15) nice. Yeah, my my local my local clubs are in that mix as well, so it's quite nice. Dean Baker (41:21) right, okay. and yeah, we're at the hotbed at the minute. So the the railway in Ketton, just down the road here, that's when the East Midlands pub of the year, so they're down to the last was it sixteen for pubs or something, fourteen for pubs. So Martin (41:34) Yeah, yeah. Dean Baker (41:36) yeah, it's a hotbed of beer around this area. Martin (41:42) Awesome. Yeah. Same as where at my area as well. They've I've got the again the one of the best pubs, got best best pub in Greater London. So it's the cockpit in Chiselhurst, which is nominated for the last 16 as well. So yeah, it sounds like your area, my area's quite high up in the beer drinkers' esteem. Yeah. Sounds good. last question then, most underrated beer style. Dean Baker (42:08) underrated their style. Martin (42:11) I mean, i it's gotta be nitro, isn't 'Cause we've just been talking about it, banging on about nitro for the last five minutes. has to be doesn't it? There is no there is no other Dean Baker (42:14) Absolutely, there we go, there's the answer. Nitro. Nitro lagers. Martin (42:20) style. Nitro lager. no one even knows that nitro lagers exist. well I don't anyway, but I I Dean Baker (42:26) Honestly, you wait. once this goes out, give it a fortnight. Martin (42:29) if you brew one, I'm definitely gonna try it. I'm really intrigued. I'm like interested in how it's gonna taste 'cause I mean if you could make it a little bit bitter as well, like a hoppy lager. Hoppy Nitro Lager. I think that would be that'd be nice. I think that would be that go down quite well. Yeah. Yeah, sorry. keep your eyes out for Nitro Lager from Baker's Dozen, everyone. It's happening. He can't go back on it now. He's got a brew one. yeah, so we'll end it on that. I think that's a brilliant way to end it. Dean, it's been a absolutely amazing talking to you and I'm sure I'm gonna catch up with you for a beer at some point. Down the line, whether it's in Liverpool for BeerX or I don't know if you're at the Brewers Congress this this month, are you? You down there? Dean Baker (43:13) we are we've got tickets. We're hoping to get down on at least one of the days. I'm not sure when yet, but it's soon, isn't it? It's a couple of weeks' time Martin (43:22) Yeah, yeah, 29th I think, to the 30th isn't it? I think. Tuesday and Wednesday, I think. I'm hoping to get down there for Tuesday. So yeah, if anyone's around, I'll be down there and hopefully Dean will be as well and Jill. yeah. so yeah, catch up with you soon, hopefully. And yeah, it's been amazing to chat and yeah, if anyone who's listening, just yeah, check out the website, buy some beers, the links will be in the description below. So check them out. Everyone should try an undertow. I think it's an amazing beer. You've got to try it. It's brilliant. and yeah, until a couple of weeks later, we'll see you again. So yeah, once again, Dean, thanks for joining us. Dean Baker (44:01) Okay. Martin (44:02) And yeah, we'll see you again soon. Cheers. Dean Baker (44:04) Cheers